Fervent Discussions on The Frosts at Florida Pagan Gathering Festival

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This is a developing story. This information was sent to PNC Florida by a reputable contact. Readers are encouraged to also review the comments (link above) which further verify this submission.

Quoted from an email: “On Tuesday, April 1, Temple of the Earth Gathering (TEG) Board of Directors, the governing body for Florida Pagan Gathering, confirmed that Gavin and Yvonne Frost will be guests at the Beltane 2014 festival and will be presenting workshops. Although they are not listed as headliners, Board Members stated that the Frosts would be guests of the staff and the festival’s spiritual advisor.

Members of the Pagan community voiced concern about the Frosts presenting, citing their 1970s published work which included sexual initiation of under age girls and other ritual practices, which they, to date, have not only never recanted, but reaffirmed on several occasions.

Members of the Board stated that the Frosts had been convicted of no crimes, that they are presenting workshops as any festival attendee is welcome to do, and dismissed concerns voiced by the festival attendees. Several FPG staff have resigned as a result.

The concerns raised come soon after news of the arrest of Kenny Klein last week and the emerging discussions in covens, communities and the blogoshpere about the need to make our communities safe for all and to end the practice of ‘looking the other way’, or excusing behaviors considered inappropriate.

After a few hours of discussion on the FPG Facebook page, FPG page administrators deleted these comments. An FPG Board member posted that those with concerns are encouraged to email the TEG board at tegboard@flapagan.org

Other members of the Pagan community are contributing to discussion on these issues. Check out T. Thorn Coyle’s thought-provoking four part article on her blog here, as well as articles by M. Macha NightMare, author Stephanie Woodfield and ex-pat blogger Cosette.

This is a developing story, please check back for updates. If you have additional relevant information, please post to the comments.

68 comments

  1. michele w says:

    In light of recent events, why on earth would any organizer include (and, endorse by virtue of including) this behavior? Whether they were convicted of a crime or not, I believe it is clear that sexual initiation with CHILDREN (the definition of anyone under 18 years of age) has the great potential to cause harm to those children, regardless of their age at the time. Are we a community that protects children? Or, perhaps, we will hold onto our ‘freedom of sexuality’ in order to exploit them? I’m thoroughly confused by the TEG’s decision. It is not an event I normally attend and not one I will plan to attend as long as this type of decision making is in place.

  2. Ray says:

    I first want to thank all of the wonderful people who have offered kind words of support. I am one of the FPG staff members to resign,and went VERY public with my resignation (my public resignation letter is pasted below). My resignation had nothing to do with the Kenny Klein case the issue with the Frosts presenting workshops at FPG is not a new one. They were at Beltane 2013 and there was a controversy over them because of their teachings. While at one of the pre-festival meetings with board of directors and division coordinators (I was a DC) discussed at length how the Frosts were perceived in the community and how the perception could reflect on to FPG, and ultimately us. I made it clear that I could not be a part of an entity who would allow the Frosts to present at their event. We were told that were Elders in the Craft and were old and would likely be dead soon, so they wouldn’t be back. I don’t want people to think I was jumping on the bandwagon of not tolerating sexual abuse, I in fact have been a part time driver of the wagon for years. So my resignation had nothing to do with the Kenny Klein arrest. I know Tzipora and others who were victims of KK, so I was gleeful to see he was arrested and confessed to possession of child porn, and hope any of his victims are able to come forward, and can heal.

    If you feel the Frosts should not be presenting workshops please contact the board of FPG and tell them how you feel at tegbod@flapagan.org. Many hands make light work!!

    NOT AN APRIL FOOLS PRANK!
    Dear FPG Staff and Attendees,
    It is with great sadness and a heavy heart that I resign form my
    position as a Division Coordinator for the Florida Pagan Gathering. I
    learned today that the Gavin and Yvonne Frost will be at Beltane 2014.
    They are being treated like a headliner but are not on the marque as
    such, they will be presenting 3 workshops and will be assigned
    preferential spaces just as a headliner would. While they may be some
    of the grandparents of the Craft in the US, their recommendation for
    sexual abuse of young girls upon their first menstruation is plain and
    simply not right and should not be condoned. I can not a be a part of
    any entity that will promote or allow people to attend an event as a
    presenter who promote the sexual abuse of children whether it be tacit
    approval by allowing people who still to this day stand by that
    treatment of girls, or by actually abusing them. I encourage everyone
    to look at the bounds of their moral compass and if that sort of
    treatment of girls is acceptable to you than by all means attend and
    support that behavior, but if you feel it incompatible with your
    morality then please boycott any event the Frosts attend or you too in
    my opinion are tacitly supporting that abuse. A stand must be made
    someplace and I see it as here for me.
    May the Gods Bless all of your worthy endeavors.

    Ray Romanowicz

  3. I have been an “Intiated” Wicca for over 35 years ! NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER have I heard of any Pagan/Wicca group EVER sexually abusing a child or children. That is till I heard of the Frosts.
    The LAW of The CRAFT is : Do as Thy will and HARM none !

    This is not my group, but it IS “My Way”, so I felt the need to voice my opinion. Blessed Be

  4. Danna says:

    This is dangerous to us all. This needs to be dealt with swiftly and quietly. As a Florida mother, I have to deal with DCF (and in one of the worst states in the nation)at least once a year because we homeschool and someone always calls. Every time, we hide that we are pagan as we live in a very Christian area. All we need is a scandal like this to make the public think that the kids are in danger because we’re pagan. These people should be shunned. And we should never speak of it again. Just my 2 cent.

    • Megan says:

      It is very important that we ***don’t*** shun and keep quiet about this. That is the path that allows perpetrators to continue their predations. The last thing we need to do as a group of faiths is end up on a path that ends up with us mirroring the Catholic Church (and other groups with similar track records.)

      I have no opinion on the Frosts at this time, nor on this festival being in Canada. However, if there are suspicions in regards to them, call Child Protective Services (or whatever they call them in your area) and let them complete an investigation. It’s only by being open that we can overcome the issues associated with what others think we do rather than what we really do. If that “openness” is going to be at the court of public opinion after an incident like Kenny Kline’s it will be worse than if we out ourselves.

      And before you comment that I have no idea about being in the South, let me assure you I do. Half my family is Texas/Oklahoma area.

  5. mae says:

    I am wiccan. I am proud of that fact, “DO WHAT YE WILL, HARM NONE! I would not attend if the Frosts come.

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      So you don’t mind judging them without meeting them or getting their opinion…

      yes very Wiccan.

  6. Michael A Manor says:

    Have they ever been convicted of anything? What are they currently saying? If a crime were to be committed, you would call the authorities, wouldn’t you? I mean, you wouldn’t try policing it yourself, would you?

    I have no feeling about the Frosts one way or another, but I have dealt with sexual abuse. I put the Pagan priest who raped my son in prison. He plead out to lesser charges, but he’s now on the sex offenders registry, Waco White Wolf Tohausen.

    As it so occurs, I am also a presenter and organizer of adult events, and am, therefore, keenly interested in protecting the welfare of students and attendees, but, not being an expert in all things, I defer to the authorities when required.

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      Remember please Michael – there is no evidence of them doing anything physical and whilst I feel for your son and hope that recovers from his ordeal…
      Remember, this is a book. Not at act.

      • SandiR says:

        Cliare,
        The community does not need to meet them personally to know what they wrote and published.
        They wrote instructions for the world to see on what to do to children to prepare them for great rite at puberty. Just because they put in some disclaimer that says they should be 18 means nothing to me. hey still use the words children and the time frame is puberty. What age does that sound like to YOU?
        THAT is what they are being judged on.
        WHY allow these people to continue to teach such things?
        Have YOU read what they wrote? And you still defend them?

        • Cliare De Luna says:

          I have read it yes, I do not approve.
          However, I am not as some are, dragging this whole situation up again after its been dragged up many times before.
          How many times to you have to answer to a witch hunt?
          There are sadly, much eaviler deeds than those of words written in the 1970s when the best thing to do, is seriously.
          If you do not like it
          Get it banned and burn every copy you can get your hands on.
          I myself feel that the instructions that Star Hawks suggests in her book that if Parents don’t buy her book it is child abuse…
          Is it? Is it really?
          Where is the element of choice to buy or not to buy, to read or not to read here?

  7. Charlie says:

    “With the Fool no season spend, lest ye be counted as his friend.”

  8. Dana Corby says:

    I am glad to see this issue being brought into the open. I had been initiated for a couple of years when the Frosts’ book “The Witches’ Bible” appeared, and one of my coven-mates bought it. After laughing at the title, we started reading and were utterly *horrified* at their practices — and this was back in the days of free love California hippie get naked in the woods witchcraft!

    The consensus was that whatever/whoever the Frosts were, they were not part of the Craft community as any of us knew it — and by ‘us’ I mean the broader community, those who subscribed-to and wrote letters to the Witches’ zines of the day, who corresponded with each other as well. Despite the lack of an internet in those days, Witches (we didn’t yet call it Wicca)were in contact all over the country and were starting to form regional organizations. The Frosts were investigated by a team (headed by Isaac Bonewits, if I recall — it was a long damn time ago) who looked into accusations of anti-Witch persecution and determined that their witchcraft was so idiosyncratic that they couldn’t really claim kinship with ours, which in those days was primarily BTW. In effect, they were told to go away and stop claiming to be the same thing we were. They were part of the reason the short lived American Council of Witches issued their Statement of Ethics, which keeps getting republished even now.

    Gavin and Yvonne Frost have one thing going for them: tenacity. It says something that they and their extensive downline are still around. But I would not call them Elders of anything but their own peculiar Tradition.

    But here is where I do an about face.

    Pagan festivals have workshops on everything from cooking to fisting, and nobody complains. Why are workshops about the Frosts’ tradition somehow different? While I — and evidently a lot of other people — find them repugnant, as far as I know there has never been a whiff of scandal about their conduct outside their own circles.

    Easy fix: Make their talks adults-only.

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      “The consensus was that whatever/whoever the Frosts were, they were not part of the Craft community as any of us knew it — and by ‘us’ I mean the broader community”

      They where English Wiccans, with others at the time doing as much dubious things and getting into situations as anyone else…

      “The Frosts were investigated by a team (headed by Isaac Bonewits”
      The first witch-hunt

      “But I would not call them Elders of anything but their own peculiar Tradition”
      I don’t think they would make claim to anything else either.

      “cooking to fisting, and nobody complains. Why are workshops about the Frosts’ tradition somehow different? While I — and evidently a lot of other people — find them repugnant, as far as I know there has never been a whiff of scandal about their conduct outside their own circles.”

      A Damn good question Dana – and if you asked them all individually, you would get a rounding chorus, of
      “Well I don’t actually know them but I have heard this…..”
      Lets put it in content.
      At the time, they WROTE about something.
      They did make love with the same sex – that was illegal.
      They did not take drugs – that was illegal.
      They WROTE about something abhorrent.
      Look on your shelves, Lady Chatterley’s Lover – Story of O, Venus in Furs, Gardner’s High Magick’s Aid – yes illegal in it’s day and as such had to be fiction, because it wasn’t that long before it, Witchcraft WAS illegal in many countries.

      Look how things have changed…
      It is not ok to have sex with the same gender
      You can read about self mutilation, torture and bdsm (in fact its often on NCIS
      You can practice Wicca.

      but you cannot have an elderly couple talk at your event because something they wrote about, in that time like everything that is acceptable today is a no no by people who have no clue to who they really are.

      Dana, you made some excellent points.

      Witch-hunt!

      • Rayna Templebee says:

        Unbelievable that you just compared repeal of the English Witchcraft Act to writing about child sexual abuse. Wow, just wow.

        This is not a matter of religious freedom. This is the pagan community speaking out loudly that we do not accept anyone who advocates the harm of young people.

        • Cliare De Luna says:

          Oh I am sorry…. can’t you break it up into little bits?
          Read it properly and you will understand the contents.

          • A'alyvyne Weaverwood says:

            Claire,
            Your argument points make no sense, broken down or read as a whole. And in the U.S.A. people did, and some still do, throw about homosexual behavior equated with sexual violence and abuse. You traipse out the same repugnant ugliness to defend and justly, to attempt to silence dissent with the Frosts’ espoused ritual practice to make a “real” witch. Their words not ours! They have NEVER taken them back, repudiated them, or explained them as a historical remnant…rather as a desired practice. By metaphor, I would argue that one need not meet Hitler to know that his espoused views were abhorrent and wrong…as he wrote in Mein Kampf and perpetuated in his leadership. This is an exaggerated example…for a reason. They espouse inherently abusive and damaging ritualized sexual practices with children by adults in authority still now….not just a long time ago. Why do you defend this? What do you get out of it?

            • Cliare De Luna says:

              I am not defending what is in the book.

              I am pointing out that quiet honestly, not one of you here are following the idea of Wicca…

              I love the biblical sayings, though I am Wiccan, they do come up with some good ones.
              do not judge, lest you be judged.

              Are you perfect?

              I doubt it.

      • Cliare De Luna says:

        Correction to my post –
        it is NOW ok… to have sex with the same gender

  9. Rain Dove says:

    Greetings Florida!
    This is Rain Dove from Georgia.
    I have recently sent an email to the link you provided, Ray. I am concerned that the Frosts are attending the event, and it very well may affect the attendance. Naturally, safety should be on everyone’s mind and not money.
    I do not have direct first hand information about Gavin, but I do have a sister High Priestess who has first hand information concerning the actions of Gavin Frost. I have asked FPG to contact her. I believe they would be making a grave mistake by allowing them to attend or be a part. Especially after what just happened. Our community (the Wiccan community in particular), suffers greatly as it is with discrimination and judgement, intolerance, etc. and for something of this nature with Kenny surfacing, it will have its affects as well. I just feel that FPG should not take any risks of anything more happening .. and again, ensuring the safety of the children and all others.
    I do hope they have a glorious Beltaine, but this particular guest should most definitely be cancelled, IMO.

    Many Blessings,
    Rain Dove / HPS The Dragon and The Rose Coven of Georgia

  10. Mike Bonewits says:

    Let’s not go jumping off the deep end now. The Frosts have never been convicted of anything. Like all possible trouble, keep a close eye on things and take appropriate action IF warranted.

    • Blackbird says:

      I’m pretty sure writing a how to manual for child sex abuse and potential incest speaks for itself. Just because it can’t be proven that they took part in such, doesn’t change that by writing such in a non-fiction manual they are advocating and condoning such actions.

      • Cliare De Luna says:

        You have obviously not read the book Blackbird – tell me how much of this “so called child sex abuse manual” have you really read and what page is it on?

        Unbelievable.

        • Amber says:

          Would you like me to post a picture of the phallus that they give instructions on making and using…. oh and get your Dad to help you if you have trouble.

          • Cliare De Luna says:

            1970′s Amber… you can’t retract what has gone before.

            • meg says:

              The Witches’ Bible has been republished over and over again, and all they have done is added a small disclaimer to the book. They have never retracted or apologized for, or removed the frankly horrible passage from the book. (I’ve read it.)

              • Liz says:

                I own an original copy. It is reprehensible. Convicted or not, does not change what they advocate, and what they clearly still believe to be true. As others have said, they have NEVER recanted what they wrote, and the book has been reprinted many times.

                Many book shops in the UK refuse to stock it at all.

  11. Angie Till says:

    Hi my name is Angie Till, I am a mother of two beautiful girls, I am a wife, I am a friend, I am a artist, I am a Reiki Practitioner, I am a Massage Therapist, and I AM A PAGAN.
    On April 1, 2014 I resigned as the Workshop Lugal and Handbook Creator for the Florida Pagan Gathering, due to the fact that once again the Frosts would be in attendance and presenting workshops, this is not the first time they have been to this festival and presented, last Beltane 2013 they presented as well. There were concerns then, and they were voiced, but those concerns were swept under the rug under the guise of ” they have never been convicted”, I do admit that I and my family had not really heard or seen what they had written at that time, we had only heard what others were saying, so my husband and I did our research after festival and were appalled at what had been written without any type of recant, apology, etc. So we decided if they were asked to return at festival we would not be part of it.
    Let me go back to the part of “they have not been convicted”, the words they wrote and stand by to this day, makes them in my eyes just as guilty as if they had done these acts, which have not been proven they have, but they are standing by those words. As people who are their followers take their word as “right” whose to say they have not acted on those words in the name of these “elders” in our community. IF ONE CHILD HAS BEEN HARMED BECAUSE OF THESE WRITINGS, THAT IS ONE TOO MANY! We as a community need to put our foot down, and voice that “We will not tolerate this type of behavior, writings, words, teachings, actions in our community” no matter what, it is not just words, WORDS have POWER, isn’t that what part of being pagan is about, the words, and intent? We as a community need to unite against abuse, Gone needs to be the days of ” I won’t go to their workshops, lectures, I won’t be around them” that is not the answer, that is not change.
    Change is hard and most of the time painful, it is a hard road to travel alone, we as a community need change, as Paganism is growing in popularity, we need to let the young ones know they are safe, they will not be abused. That we as a community are transparent, work together to resolve issues that come to light whether they are new or old issues, just because it’s an old issue does not mean that we sweep it under the rug, that is not ethical.
    Stand up as a community.

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      “IF ONE CHILD HAS BEEN HARMED BECAUSE OF THESE WRITINGS, THAT IS ONE TOO MANY!”

      Could that possibly be why Catholic Priests in Ireland who have sexually abused and tortured children for many many years, and other priests around the world are in a similar situation?

      Because they read the Bible?

      Evil is in the person – not a book.
      Otherwise the bible would be banned.. and the Christian Catholic Priests would all be reading Toy Story.
      No wait… there is a bit of violence in that. Woops.

  12. Cliare De Luna says:

    I am totally amazed.
    I really thought that the witch-
    hunts had gone a long time ago!

    If the Frosts published a book that they have since changed that surely means they have also changed their opinion on it too.
    The issue of the Frosts keeps coming up and up again…
    The same old shit, of ohh aren’t they bad because they published a book saying such and such.

    What actually happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
    You have no proof they did what was in the book!

    You really need to look inside to your own values, before you start another witch hunt where there was NO evidence to be found over 40 years ago.

    If you don’t want them there, just tell them.

    However… most of you do not even know them.. and you are judging them from a book that is now long changed.
    I call that a kangaroo court.

    Incredible – you call yourselves witches?

    • Rayna says:

      Cliare–I admire your defense of hte innocent until proven guilty premise on the US courts. The issue is not whether or not the Frosts have abused children or would abuse a child at FPG. I highly doubt that would happen.

      The issue is that long ago they wrote a book that said Wicca involved the mandatory sexual initiation of children. And they have never recanted that practice, in fact Gavin is known to laugh and say the disclaimers (in more recent editions) were required by their publishers.

      Do you want your child to learn that version of the Craft? Do you want anyone to learn that version of the Craft? Do you want that practice to be okay in modern paganism? The forced sexual initiation of children? Really?

      I really dont think it is likely the Frosts ever practiced that horrific ritual, at least I dont want to think that they did. But keeping it as part of their books, over and over, up to 2006, is just gross and creepy. If it was to sell books, even grosser. They are definitely guilty of writing some heinous stuff and calling it “Craft.” That kind of manipulative attitude toward sex is what has to stop. It is not healthy for paganism and not healthy for any of us.

      • Cliare De Luna says:

        I know what the book is about, I do actually have one of the original copies.

        It is up to the responsibility of parents to teach their children what to learn about craft nowadays.

        When that book was written, there where few children in craft end of.
        Books were never meant to be read by children, certainly ritual books for covens and the like.

        This changed you might say — yes, indeed it did and so did perceptions – born out by the Frosts rewriting their book to move with feelings of the day, acceptance of their stupid mistake in publishing it in the first place, and the Frost’s views on the matter when they decided to re write the book omitting that section.

        If you do not want the book on your shelf, do not buy it.
        Not that those older copies are around any more anyhow…
        Most of the people here are talking hypothetically anyhow, as they would neither purchase it, or even be able to purchase such a copy.

        Seriously – how many can get a hold of one to let it irresponsibly fall into the hands of there children anyhow?
        IF that happens, that is bad parenting much like if you let a child take your drug substitute out of the refrigerator or burn itself with a hot pan.

        What you cannot do, and what makes you worse than them, is to go around re-hashing their past mistakes half a lifetime on.

        Not only is it pathetic, it is an attempt to make themselves some kind of avenging warrior.

        You said, “I really don’t think it is likely the Frosts ever practiced that horrific ritual”
        I say, “And Steven King did not go around beheading and killing innocents either, but I do not see you string him up?”

        How Sad. What utter pathetic behavior you are displaying when you are yourselves preaching harm none you are making their past, their lives a misery.

        SHAME again on you.

        • Rayna Templebee says:

          Point me to a documented apology by the Frosts for what they published over and over again. Point me to a recanting or withdrawal of the sexual initiation of children. I am as willing to forgive as anyone, but when questioned on this (at FPG!) the Frosts have not withdrawn or apologized for what they wrote.

        • Canu says:

          Cliare, you have said that you have their books and are heaping shame on others as if it was, as you say, just a book and written half a lifetime ago. But it wasn’t just a book, and it’s an instructional book to train adults in how to run small religious groups and claims to represent the Craft. Your examples of fiction are really comparable, and strawman that the concern is about the book falling into the hands of children inadvertently isn’t what anyone has claimed is the essential problem. Since you know their writings, you can confirm if the disturbing material quoted here is accurate and was published in 2007, rather than a half a lifetime ago. http://tuecaa.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/protecting-pedophiles-and-holding-wicca-accountable-quoted-text-post/ If that’s not accurate, it’d be good to discuss it rather than excortiate folks expressing their concerns. The Frosts publications stand on their own. This isn’t about conviction vs. not guilty. It’s about having sufficient information for each of us to decide for ourselves.

          • Cliare De Luna says:

            No, it is in fact, a book, that they produced to go with THEIR version of THEIR wicca.

            No one is asking you to be part of that.

            “The Frosts publications stand on their own”.

            In that we agree……

            and if you don’t stand with it, dont read it.

            • A'alyvyne Weaverwood says:

              This issues is NOT just about the book and their practices alone. If that were the case, they could just stay home and those that wish to follow them could by their books, and visit them. This is ALSO about a major gathering holding these folks up as leaders, teachers, and role models! And there are many, many people…as you can plainly see from the numbers of people expressing themselves on the topic…who simply do NOT want this at the festival they have supported and attended for years! They all speak up and stand up for for their beliefs. No threats, no excoriation….certainly not the kind of belittling commentary I have sen you stoop to in your responses. You have even been invited to show information to the contrary. You cannot show this….because it does not exist. The facts are as they are. We all now stand in accord to our beliefs….and vote with our voices, feet and wallets. Don’t belittle civil, if rigorous, public discourse.

        • Carol Maltby says:

          Cliare, you are being dishonest about the Frosts’ book.

          Gavin and Yvonne did not re-write the book. Their last edition published in 2000 has the exact same pedophilia porn instructions that their early seventies editions have. The Frosts have refused to ever repudiate their teachings on child rape, over a period of decades. They have admitted in writing that the practices in question are the way they practiced their religion.

          Publicizing their unrepentant advocacy of felony child abuse is not worse than their writing and teaching of it in their “Bible,” the primary source on their religious practice. Your apologetics for the Frosts are the ugly nonsense of someone who hides behind a made-up name that appears nowhere else in all of Google.

    • Hello Cliare:

      As one of the activists working with Frost Free FPG, I want to clarify some points for you. At no time have we ever contended the Frosts committed any criminal acts. No one knows if they have or have not, that it left up to their consciences.

      What we have asked is that if the Frosts attend FPG, they not be allowed to teach workshops. We feel giving them a platform and the position of teachers in our community is wrong given what they have written. Furthermore. they are umrepentant about it, and have defended their own writings in the face of the fact that what they advocate is not only illegal, but disgusting and wrong.

      We have also stipulated that if the Frosts were willing to fully retract those statements and disavow them, we will welcome them back to our community as edlers and, teachers.

      We are also troubled deeply about FPG’s reactions to these requests. Their reaction has included censoring discussion on social media, and misrepresenting facts and erasing conversations that they later contradicted. As far as we are concerned, our requests remain focused on the issue of the Frosts teaching workshops, and remain hopeful that the FPG board will see the importance of this issue.

      Please feel free to sign the Joint Resolution at our Facebook page.

      EGR

      • Cliare De Luna says:

        “As one of the activists working with Frost Free FPG, I want to clarify some points for you. At no time have we ever contended the Frosts committed any criminal acts. No one knows if they have or have not, that it left up to their consciences.”

        You hypocrite!

        I am more annoyed by what you are doing that what the Frosts have ever perceived to have done.
        Do you know why?

        You are running a campaign against two people who really are at the time end of their life, calling it a “FROST FREE” campagne… and yet you have the gall to suggest they are welcome to your event.

        Why on earth would they even want to come to an event with such a campaign running that is called that.

        Whether they want to teach a workshop or not, is irrelevant.
        If anything it is to your benefit to make you money and pleasure your attendees. It won’t do anything for me, and I actually care neither whether they come or don’t and it matters not to me either way. Who loses? you do.. that is all. The Frost’s won’t care.

        Repent – Are you seriously suggesting that you want to get the Frosts to repent something that has happened 40 years back?
        Repent? I love your language – spoken like a true Christian.
        I thought witches where beyond repenting, and we cared for each other for actually forgave each other for our differences?

        Do you really and seriously believe that if the Frosts come, they will be standing alone? No, do you know what will happen?
        Those who want to talk to them, will go to their area and not bother going to the other talks. Who is that hurting now?
        In fact, no, I have changed my mind – but a ban on them, because giving them an open forum just to chat, will actually show people what they are like, what their personality is like, and who they are…. nooo, I take it all back..
        I see this backfiring on you greatly.

        You seriously need to let go of that book..

        it is a weight around your shoulders and the only ones carrying that brick that is going to drown you one day in self pity and loathing are those who cannot see that the original book, (not the new versions) where OF ITS DAY… and that has even changed.

        I really feel sorry for you. The Frosts have really screwed up when they published that volume, but, at least its not having to live with biggotry inside.

        A last point.
        Gardner was into bdsm – illegal at the time.
        Sanders had dubious grandmother beginnings, self admitted child abuse,
        Crowley was a drug taker, again illegal
        … and apparently Blavatsky was partial too.

        I think when books come out in the near future of what our originators really got up to around that time…
        THIS will be the last of your perfect Wicca.

        The Frosts will appear as pussy cats and your campaign will look like another Christian Witch Hunt.

        • Lady Bridget says:

          I have the book, in fact have seen the older editions and have a newer copy. It is still reprehensible. I have met the Frosts. I have signed this resolution, as I don’t want them teaching people new to our path in a workshop their twisted ideas of Wiccan practice. That’s my right as an attendee at FPG. I have the same Freedom of Speech as anyone else to voice my opinion and it is my opinion, as it is the opinion of a lot of other people, that enough is enough.

        • Hi agian Claire. thanks for your reply.

          I’ll try to address these points you make.

          1. I’m not acting hypocritically, at least as far as I cam tell. The Frosts are welcome to attend as regular guests. I have no quarrel with that. What I object to is the idea of them being held as headliners, given workshop space, allowed to vend, and being referred to as Edler (not just old, but as leaders in the Pagan community). These things are unacceptable given the kind of stuff they advocated, AND NEVER RETRACTED. I and others like me feel that they are not the kind of people we want in a position of esteem in our community. We tried to communicate this to FPG, and they censored discussion on social media, refused to answer emails that the told us was how they preferred communication, and issued a statement with some inflammatory language. We tried. FPG wouldn’t listen, so me and some friends started a boycott.

          Lots of people agree with us too.

          2. I don’t know why the Frosts would want to come to our event when they aren’t wanted. You’ll have to ask FPG Board of Directors, they aren’t answering our emails. Maybe you can find out and tell me? Id really like to know too.

          3. Sometimes in life we have to choose what is right over what is easy and fun. I really love FPG, been to every one wince 2006, that’s 16 festivals. I would love to go again. But my moral sense won’t let me when I know the Frosts benefit from it. My community agrees, those who don’t are free to act as their conscience dictates. I love them no less. But I cannot give my money to an organization which would choose to support the Frosts, and ignore the troubling and offensive stuff the wrote and still stand by.

          4. Repent is just a word, if you like we can choose another: retract, recant, disown, apologize…any of these will work. Christians use the word and I can too. Nobody owns it.

          But yes, I want them to retract their statements and issue an apology. And I can vote with my feet and my dollars. My friends agree, they vote too, and they explain their reasons to others. If those folks agree, they can vote with their feet and dollars too and so on until the event is no longer financially viable or the Board changes its mind.

          Its really quite simple.

          5. Claire, I wish I cold let go of what I read, but I can’t. And to know organizers in my community want to give a free pass to those who wrote a manual for child sexual abuse sickens me. We cant be silent anymore. Sorry, but those are the facts.

          6. The issue with the Frosts isn’t a legal one – no charges were ever filed. It’s a moral one. If Gardener, Sanders or Crowley did those things you claim, ok, sure maybe they were illegal. But everyone has a right to do with his or her body as he sees fit, and to do with consenting adults what they all agree to.

          The Frosts are a completely different matter – they advocate incest and child abuse. This is different because it’s morally repugnant and wrong. We as a community have a responsibility to stand up against it.

          Claire, I believe deep down, we all have a moral compass. I know the allegations are hard to accept, and I urge you to research it yourself. Look up the Frost’s original Witche’s Bible and read chapter 4. Look at the diagrams for homemade dildoes and read how a preteen child should be made to fast, drink mead, watch adults have sex, and then have sex with their adult sponsor. How a girl should have her hymen broken with a homemade dildo by her father in a circle with the coven watching.

          Read it. Then check your moral compass, and tell me if you still think we ought to sweep it under a rug.

          • Cliare De Luna says:

            “1. I’m not acting hypocritically, at least as far as I cam tell”

            In suggesting they can come but not do a lecture or teaching, and running a campaign called “Frost Free” is hypocritical.

            “2. I don’t know why the Frosts would want to come to our event when they aren’t wanted”`

            You are speaking for yourself here. How do you know others don’t want them there. Ok, so these threads suggest they don’t but many who are not posting might actually want to go and see them. You cannot speak for all and FGP is obviously of that opinion.
            If you don’t like it, don’t go. Simple.

            “But my moral sense won’t let me when I know the Frosts benefit from it”

            Then you are “cutting your nose off, to spite your face” as the English say… Only you are going to lose out.

            “4. Repent is just a word, if you like we can choose another: retract, recant, disown, apologize…any of these will work. Christians use the word and I can too. Nobody owns it.”

            It’s all in the subconscious however.
            Do you have a gun?

            “And I can vote with my feet and my dollars.”
            And, if everyone does that it’s going to be a lovely camp then… so you won’t miss out.
            Put your money where your mouth is, I bet you still go!

            5.”Claire, I wish I cold let go of what I read, but I can’t. And to know organizers in my community want to give a free pass to those who wrote a manual for child sexual abuse sickens me. We cant be silent anymore. Sorry, but those are the facts.”

            And you are fighting the battle with your head in a bucket. All you are going to get are echos and loud noises. Consider this.
            This gets in the news – who loses? Them? You? The Organizers? Or the whole Pagan community? or… all the lot?
            Your campaign makes you look silly and childish and you are going about this the wrong way.
            Do you think really, this is just about letting them speak at ONE camp?

            “6. The issue with the Frosts isn’t a legal one”

            And there lies the crux. Not only is not not legal, it’s also been passed over with them being innocent of it the first time.

            “The Frosts are a completely different matter – they advocate incest and child abuse.”

            So take your evidence to the law.
            Consider American laws on inciting riots or terrorism in fiction or published work.
            Now consider a book being published not as a manual… because it isn’t one; but, it is instructional with the complaints you say you have, and how that falls under the publishing constriction.
            you may be playing the right game Edward – but you are playing on the wrong playing field.

            … and yes… Gardner, Sanders etc
            Read: Hesilton, Sanders, Valiente and – Crowley for references.

            “Read it. Then check your moral compass, and tell me if you still think we ought to sweep it under a rug.”

            I refer to the wrong playing field comment.
            A camp is not the venue to vent your spleen.

            • Hey Claire, enjoying the exchange with you.

              This issue is pretty much settled. The Frosts won’t be attending anyway, but I’d like to reply to some points.

              1: I think you chose the word hypocrite because it’s a snarl word. I don’t think there’s any real evidence that I said one thing and did another.

              2: I generally only speak for !myself, but in this case we had over 200 signatories to the joint resolution, who indicate they agreemby signing it. So in this case I’m just sharing what we all agreed to

              3. I don’t think its a cut off the nose despite one’s face. The real problem here was a board of directors who weren’t acting in the desires and best interests of many in the community. Unfortunately, economic pressure is the only tool we had, and it seems to have gotten their attention.

              4: Interesting that you should think there’s a subconscious argument here and mention guns. Many in the community ritually order elementals around in circle at knifepoint. Do you question their subconscious as well? Ever challenged anyone in ritual by pointing an athame at them?

              5: I honestly believe that the Frosts represent the bigger problem of silence in the Pagan community by its leadership. No more sweeping problems under the rug. You are welcome to choose how you want to address it – ours isn’t the only way. But in our situation, we had leaders who would not do the right thing, and ignored the reasoned requests of the community that was rightly offended at the Frosts defense of their own published work. It was indefenseable and disgusting, and we didn’t want them teaching at FPG.

              What is wrong with what we did? We simply said if they are permitted to teach, we won’t attend. We don’t owe FPG money, and in a free country I can spend mine where I like. The only difference here is 200 others agreed with me. And even then, FPG didn’t change their minds until the camp wa notified.

              Then they changed plans. Nice way to listen to their community, don’t you think?

  13. Cliare De Luna says:

    To Dana Corby

    The Frosts brought Wicca to American before Buckland did.
    They just where not published first.
    Just saying.

    • Nyt says:

      They brought something they “called” Wicca. Not the same thing. Read Issac Bonewits investigation from the 70′s along with his comments.

      • Strix says:

        Nyt, can you post that link if possible so others can see as well?

      • Cliare De Luna says:

        So you want me to read the original attack on the Frosts in the 70s do you that Bonewits brought about?
        Despite, even after that, there being no evidence?
        If someone attacked you and brought you in front of the law, do you think that you would be in a friendly, relationship with them?
        Do you not think that the Frosts and the Bonewits might just not be ickle pals?

        • Lady Bridget says:

          Sounds like you want us to wait until someone comes forward to claim abuse?

          Isn’t it too late by then?

          It’s PUBLISHED for Goddess’ sake – they have publicly stated many times that this is part of a “real” witch tradition – despite many other trads who say it’s not.

          Who are you? Are you related to the Frosts? Are you in the Tradition?

          You are defending them awfully hard and attacking those who want to kick them off the pedestal. I have to wonder why.

          • Cliare De Luna says:

            No, I am just pointing out, how unWiccan you all are for having a campaign called ‘Frost Free”.

    • Liz says:

      I think you’ll find they didn’t. Buckland was the first to bring Wicca to America. It’s easy to figure out. Buckland was in America first. Not that difficult.

      And, I also find it rather intriguing that you keep ignoring everyone when they say they want an apology and a retraction of what the Frosts wrote. Why are you defending them? Are you their spokesperson?

  14. Nyt says:

    They brought something they “called” Wicca. Not the same thing. Read Issac Bonewits investigation from the 70′s along with his comments.

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      You haven’t a clue what Wicca was like in the 70s

      It may not be your fluffy Wicca… no.. but, it was Wicca.

      • Cliare De Luna says:

        First line in reference to The Wicca of the UK.

        For one – you would have spelled it with a single C.

  15. Nyt says:

    LOL, I have to admit Cliare that you remind me a great deal of a Troll from the gaming community :)

    So have fun with that! I am pretty sure everyone see’s through you.

    Obvious Troll is Obvious :)

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      Thankfully Nyt gaming is something that has never really rocked my boat, I find gaming is usually left to spotty adolescent teenagers.

  16. Spyder Moon says:

    I am so troubled by the very idea that because someone is older or that they have been a leader it could be conceived as acceptable that they would encourage others to place children in danger. Supporting the Frosts supports their teachings. I live in Florida and will not be attending the FPG, nor would I consider it because of this issue. Goddess bless each of you.

  17. Cliare De Luna says:

    Spyder, do you believe the Christian God is your God?

    no, I would think you do not.

    So, then, why would people consider someone your leader, if they are not their leader? (or elder)
    Especially so in the fact they have a church and you are not in it?

    See this is where we have it wrong. There is far, far to much weight put on “oh we must respect Lady such and such because she’s an elder”
    This is often done blindly.
    Never have I actually seen anyone with the balls to say well, no, Lady such and such might be their leader but they are not mine, or just because they run this that or the other they expect some exaulted treatment as royal dignitaries… Stop putting them on pedestals and then they cannot fall off them!

    You do not have to see Gavin and Yvonne as leaders or elders or anything special – what makes you think you have to? Just because they run THEIR School/Church of Wicca?

    Would you consider a Catholic priest your leader if he runs a church?

    In all honesty, we only have to serve the God and the Goddess and respect our OWN Elders who run the coven or group we are in.
    Anyone else is JUST A PERSON, equal to others and all.

    They are not Ladies, and they are not Lords (and these are stupid titles that are meaningless anyhow). In fact, a Priestess is only as good as her magick.
    Only EGO and sycophantic behavior puts them in those positions with mock titles.

    The minute we stop seeing “them” as leaders (and I mean all wannabees) and putting them on pedestals is the minute we do not put credence to our headlines and only respect them as people and not god heads.

  18. Liz says:

    @Cliare Their disgusting book has never changed. Their 7th edition from 2007 states, word for word, what their 1st edition of 1972 (of which I own a copy)

    “When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”

    So, when puberty hits. Which can be at any age. I was 9. So, at 9 I was ready for public sex with an adult? And they maintain this act to this day. And you think we’re blowing things all out of proportion??

    • Cliare De Luna says:

      No, if you read back, I said and always said, that it’s hypocritical to allow them to be at a fair.. but not let them lecture.
      To have a campaign as said fair, and that, in itself is going about it the wrong way.
      I also said that, the idea of calling anyone Lord, Lady or Elder if they are not of your path is ridiculous, but, we Americans do it.
      Why though? Why do we give automatic respect to people using silly titles.
      If people stopped doing that, then we would not be here discussing this situation.

      • Liz says:

        I wouldn’t know, I’m not American.

        As for the campaign, I couldn’t give a damn if they protest at the fair. It actually might make the Frosts realise that the Pagan community will never let them get away with their reprehensible behaviour, no matter what.

        And you’re still ignoring the point people are so pee’d off about.

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